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[info]jonathankaplan


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Phil Ivey gets peeved at me.
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[info]jonathankaplan
I’m walking through the Bellagio this past Friday and I get to one of the main intersections. It’s like an old-time Hollywood and Vine for craps and BJ players, a bunch of bigger games are situated there, near the main cage and the safe boxes. It is a good place to be seen playing if that is what you are into.
Phil is playing craps at the table on the main corner. He is shooting by himself, but there is a crowd of a few dozen people standing around watching, most keeping some distance. Phil’s got a small handful of big chips, a few big quarters and lesser 1Ks, but I don’t see more than a few other chips, in his rows or on the layout. He is not giving off the feeling of flush. I stop to watch for a while. It interests me that a thoughtful top poker player is shooting dice, there are many leaks in pro poker and outside gambling can be a huge drain. I am surprised Phil is there (even though I have seen him playing big blackjack nearby...and it's only a few steps to the craps table.)

Ivey and I first met at the inaugural bellagio 10K event. We had a meal together that night, mainly cause of the timing of a hand together juxtaposed with the dinner break. We discussed quite a few things then, but almost no poker, and I got to see some of what he is like, I think. He struck me as quite intelligent and mild mannered, even shy. We talked a great deal about trading, he seemed very interested in it generally. We have met over the felt a few other times. I like the guy.
So I stop to watch Phil play some craps.

He is shooting, and also, chatting with a couple about his own age. I can’t tell if he is hanging out with them or not. I step a little closer to see better and Phil sees me. We make eye contact in a poker awareness way, (like how you check out players when sizing out a table from the rail, smile and nod to known opposition.).
He goes back to chatting at the couple.
Phil says to her, “Here, you roll for me for awhile.”.
She gets a frightened deer look in her face, recoils a bit, says “No way, I can’t do it!”.
Phil replies, “You can’t do any worse than I am.”.
Phil rolls.
The stickman says, “Seven Out.”.
Phil now looks at the layout, the stickman has already retrieved the dice and is moving them back to the (only) shooter.
Phil says, “Next time, could you pull the dice out of that shadow without changing them, I couldn’t see 'em? I’ve had people cheat me like that.” The table employees glance around at each other.
The stickman says, “That doesn’t happen here at the Bellagio.”

I choose that moment to comment to Phil.
“Phil, why don’t you let me show you some about trading, it’s a lot bigger and more fun than craps.”
Ivey looks at me again. His face has changed, now he is grimacing, with some amount of hostility.
He says, “What, you don’t think I should be doing this?”.
His face is evidencing more emotion than I have EVER seen him show. He’s taken numerous bad beats on TV, faced quite a few reversals of fortune, won and lost tons of money in public view, and he hardly even blinks. But now, his change in demeanor is quite dramatic.
I say, “No, Phil, what do I know? I know you are an action guy, this is an action game.”
He turns away, saying, “Okay, just checking”.
He rolls again, I walk away.
I don’t think we are as friendly any more.

You should know by now that interventions from the rail are rarely met with anything other than anger.

(Deleted comment)
I've played craps a few times, most of those before I learned poker. I was a don't side player, which kind of summed up my view at the time.

The few times I have played craps in the last 20 years, it has only been with friends, as (pretty much, just) a source of entertainment. I don't play the don't anymore, now I want to be with a happy crowd. The last two times I played dice was with tables of friends, both times the shooter held the dice about an hour, both times whole tables made alot of money.
I think the numbers I rung up won't ever be topped by me.
I might never play the game again.

maybe he'd just had a rough day and you caught him off guard? your timing might not have been the best if he'd just had a philosophical discussion with a croupier, perhaps you startled him?

next time you see him away from the table go for a "hey i hope i didn't offend you the other day, didn't mean anything by it was just being friendly y'know?" and probably everything will be cool :)

but then, you knew this :)

smile....yep.
He probably was having a rough day, by most standards. At the pace he was playing, it wouldn't have been difficult to drop a quarter million in about an hour. But who knows what is "rough" to him?

I think I don't want to reassure him about me. If I offended him, well, it wasn't in a hurtful way. I would say I was being friendly, but I guess I did actually lie to him, I didn't answer straight. I DO think he shouldn't be playing craps like that. What is the point?
I know he is smarter than that. He can (and does) play in the biggest poker games. That isn't enough action? He could play backgammon or gin or even trade and have action and still be not taking that obvious negative EV from craps.
Action with such negative EV doesn't seem like much fun to me, and not smart, but then, maybe there is more to this story than meets my eye.

I would have been offended too. In front of everyone you make a statement that is very obvious that you don't think he should be playing craps and you are trying to get him off the table.

Who the heck are you to pass judgement on what he does with his money -- let alone act on it. I don't that you are such good friends with Phil Ivey that it is your responsiblity to regulate what he does or doesn't do with his money.

You make good points. It's his money to use as he wishes. It isn't my responsibility in any way. I am who I am.
And maybe I did offend him.
Well, tough.
He and I have talked only a short amount, less than two hours all together, but a big part of what we have talked about was how to get positive EV. The discussion was mainly about trading and life and not poker, but it was clear that Phil had a great grasp of how to get the best of it.

When I perceived him so emotionally and negatively involved in craps, I just spoke up. Perhaps I was wrong to do that. On the other hand, if a friend of mine was tilting at poker, I'd be inclined to try and give some support there, in some way. Phil Ivey wasn't more than a chatting acquaintance to me, but after our talk of expected value in gaming and life I didn't want to say nothing, either.

I can't help thinking that he WAS getting positive EV by playing, just in some way which I am unaware.

Regardless, I am pretty sure Phil had forgotten me and the incident very shortly after. It was almost nothing.
And if I hadn't said something, I would be regretting that now, on some level.
So I am glad I spoke.

And thank you for your response.

Here's another Ivey and craps tale: http://tinyurl.com/dgd99

The other night, we were playing craps at a $10-minimum table when Phil Ivey approaches. Before he even places a bet, the table minimum is jacked to $500. Fortunately, we were grandfathered so were able to share the table with Ivey. While my friend and I had about a thousand dollars on a particular roll, Ivey was nonchalantly tossing flags ($5000 chips) and worthless $1000 chips onto the table. He was in a jovial mood, although he is famously known as an unemotional individual. At one point, Ivey had about $150 thousand dollars on a roll, which eventually lost, but he simply uttered, 'Oops' with nary a negative reaction. When my friend and I thought about what had just occurred, we found it extremely sick that a 28-year-old kid whose wealth is completely self-made had what amounts to a house for the average American family on a shot of dice. Again, it was incredibly sick. I repeat, Ivey is a poker player, not an old businessman or lawyer or rich kid with an inheritance. He had a rack of flags in front of him on the table, and he was dispensing chips from it like a fat kid at the soft serve machine. Sick.

Phil doesn't sound like a trader I'd want to clear or back. He'd be the kind of guy who would trade great for a month and then blow it all (or double up!) by putting on a big position at 7:25 on the first Friday morning of the month, "just to make it interesting."

I'm mystified as to why great poker players, who work their asses off at the table to create positive EV, give up huge gobs of EV in the casino, sports book, or golf course. Then again, I've never understood why traders who spend their days fighting like hell for the edge go to casinos and give up the edge.

Of the many traders I have seen who gambled in casinos, most of them understood the edge in non-mathematical terms, like, buy on the bid, sell on the offer. Not many of the math-based traders I knew gambled in casinos more than rarely.
I wouldn't think of backing Ivey the trader, but I would be interested to watch his learning curve and see what happens.

He wins money in poker rooms then dumps on the craps table? Maybe this is some elaborate scheme to launder money or something.
This just seems that stupid.

Maybe your timing was just bad. It seems like you started talking to him right after he lost. People are always testy right then.

It's hard to know the reasons for an unexpected reaction like that, but it sounds to me like he probably gets complaints about playing those kinds of games from other people, I would guess family members in particular, or maybe someone else had just bothered him about it.

That kind of reaction from a guy like he seems to be just doesn't make sense to me unless there was more behind it, and it doesn't sound like he had anything else against you, so...

Just give me the F>>>>ing change....

[info]oscarmc

2005-07-14 01:26 pm (UTC)

Nice story as always JK.

If I was Ivey I think I would be peeved too.

I think its the kind of peeved a street person feels when they are asking for change for food and some do-gooder gives them a apple.

Thanks for nothing. In this case the apple being your well timed advice to learn trading.

Enjoy your writing very much.

vuitton bag

(Anonymous)

2011-02-11 10:11 pm (UTC)

In my opinion you are not right. I am assured.

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